Philippa Kennealy, MD – EntrepreneurialMD.com

philippaToday we spend time with Philippa Kennealy, founder of The Entrepreneurial MD. Dr. Kennealy is a former practicing family doctor and physician executive who now coaches physicians (and other professionals) to help them make the leap into becoming entrepreneurs. Philippa shares great information, including:

  • How getting a handle on the inner game is crucial to your success and being able to begin fulfilling your vision
  • What 3 common challenges physicians struggle with when attempting to make the leap into entrepreneurship and how to overcome them
  • Why creating a communication and mediation agreement is essential before partnering with others
  • Why she feels getting an MBA is not necessary for doctors who want to start their own business

Josh Mettle: Hello and welcome to the Physician Financial Success Podcast. My name is Josh Mettle, and this is the podcast dedicated to advising physicians how to avoid financial landmines. Today, we’ll be talking with Philippa Kennealy from The Entrepreneurial MD. Philippa, you just helped me with the pronunciation, and I messed it up, so just bear with me.

Philippa Kennealy: Sure. No problem.

Josh Mettle: Thank you. Philippa works with physicians, who are struggling to generate business ideas, are overwhelmed with launching and running sound ventures such as enhancements to existing practices or new medical and nonmedical businesses. We’re going to have a whole talk today about entrepreneurship. I’m very excited to welcome you, so welcome to the show and how are you?

Philippa Kennealy: I’m excellent thanks, and I’m delighted to be here.

Josh Mettle: Thank you for your time and for your wisdom. Let’s just jump right in. I’m interested to find out a little bit about your background as an MD and about your journey to become an expert on physician entrepreneurship.

Philippa Kennealy: All right, well I will warm you it is a very checkered career, not one that I would necessarily advise everybody to follow, but you can guess I have a different accent. I was actually born and raised in South Africa, and trained as a doctor in South Africa, and then spent some time working in the rural bush in Zimbabwe, sort of on a whim really, and finally landed up in the United States for personal reasons. Trained as a family physician and went out and just went into a regular practice like most of us do. By the way without any clue that I was actually in a business. It never occurred to me that I was in a business. I was just a doctor going into practice.

I did that for about 9 years, and then realized that I was actually quite frustrated and dissatisfied with my work. We were sort of in the peak of HMO medicine in southern California in the mid ‘90s, and I felt a strong pull to try something different. I went back to school at UCLA. They had a brand-new executive master’s in public health that was sort of a more business-oriented degree. I did that and midway through that, I had the opportunity to become the medical director, the VP, the vice-president for medical affairs, initially as the medical director and then ultimately the CEO at Santa Monica UCLA Medical Center, which was a very interesting time in my life. But again, it’s didn’t really tapped into the passions that I felt.

I got a call out of the blue one day, asking me if I would be interested in joining an Internet startup company, and of course, this was the dotcom heyday era. It was a really exciting opportunity, which I jumped at, left behind the bureaucracy of the big sort of academic community hospital complex. And went into this very nimble, small startup, and had a lot of fun. I was in charge of – the, we were doing sort of a group coaching and a wellness behavioral modification program that was all going to be delivered online. It was a very exciting program, unfortunately a bit ahead of its time because it really did require broadband at a time where there wasn’t much broadband. That was where I first discovered this thing called coaching. I was actually in charge of the coaching component of the program, as well as overseeing the medical quality of the program, and I never really heard of coaching. I went off and read all about it, and thought, “Oh, that’s a fantastic retirement career for me one day.” I shoved it away in my mind, carried on, and then of course, the dotcom bust came along, and we could not get another round of funding. My beloved company that I was having so much fun had to close down, and I did some more consulting with another company around some Internet stuff for another year, and then I went into some sort of vacuum where I really didn’t know what I wanted to do next. I was really contemplating what my future move was. I knew I did not want to go back into clinical medicine, but I didn’t know what was around the corner until I pulled the idea of coaching out again, decided to train and become a coach back in 2002, in which I launched my own coaching business again in a pretty clueless state. This was the first time that it really hit home that I had to learn something about business because as a clinician in a medical practice, my business built steadily without my having to understand anything about business because people knew what doctors did.

When you have to try and give an idea of what coaches did and what value they could offer and what need in the marketplace was, it was a much more intangible difficult thing to describe. And so, I suddenly realized that I had to sort of knuckle down and learn about business, but I had a little bit of inkling of this from my MPH training. I became a student of business as much as I became a student of anything else at that time. That’s really what brought me to this.

Initially, I was sort of coaching anybody and everybody with a strong focus on physicians and healthcare. But by about 2006, I had realized that the area that I loved working in the most and where I spent all my effort was in becoming an entrepreneurial physician, and it suddenly dawned on me that this is the group that I love working with. Although I also love working with physicians in leadership training, but I rebranded myself and launched The Entrepreneurial MD in 2006 and really never looked back. I still continue to be a student of business.

Josh Mettle: Just a personal question, and what a great story. It almost seems like it was a chain of events that landed you, launching or founding The Entrepreneurial MD, but had you not taken that venture into the dotcom world and had that funding not gone through, I wonder if ever you ever would have made it to this place today. Just an interesting turn of events, but I wonder how that – without that catalyst, had you arrived at the same place and on the same journey.

Philippa Kennealy: Well, that’s a fascinating question because I don’t know the answer to that. Given my lust for what I do, I have a feeling that I have always been – I’m not a very good 10-year planner ‑ 10-year not tenure – 10-year planner, but I am a tremendous opportunist. I do spot opportunities. I suspect that given my restlessness, I would have spotted whatever that next opportunity is. I don’t know what that would have been, and I don’t know what it would have aroused in me because I am also a little bit of a ‑ I love specializing in all kinds of things. I have sort of a wide range of interests, so I don’t know what the next thing would have been. The real answer is I actually don’t know what would have come. I think something would have come up because I don’t think I was going to be satisfied staying where I was.

Josh Mettle: Yeah. I have the notion that you are the type of person that there is always going to be more opportunity than time for you, so I’m sure you would have found one other beautiful opportunity if it wouldn’t have been this one.

Philippa Kennealy: Something, something like that I would have imagined. Yeah.

Josh Mettle: Well, Philippa, having traveled this path yourself now and it sounds like The Entrepreneurial MD has been around for eight years, and tell us a little bit about what have been the hardest lessons for you to learn as a physician entrepreneur?

Philippa Kennealy: Well, as I mentioned just learning about business itself was a big lesson in and of itself, just understanding what business is and defining a need in the marketplace and then figuring out how to respond to that need rather than just having an idea to stick out there and hope somebody would bite. And then, just mastering this whole idea around marketing.

Marketing is not a comfortable thing for most physicians because we feel squirmy asking for money or putting a price on things. I had to educate myself that the best way to market is through education, being an educational marketer, exposing my potential audience to things that they could learn and that I could give away for free as a sample of what they could get if they engaged on a deeper level. Having to learn that piece was really challenging, and I spent many, many hours taking marketing courses, reading about it, reading about business, so I think for me those are the biggest challenges.

Josh Mettle: I mean that’s the definition of entrepreneurship itself. You said, “Finding the need, creating a solution, and then marketing through education.” And just to add one more thing: what I love so much about entrepreneurship personally, is that not only do you get to do those things, but then if you find success in matching that solution to the need, then your business or your entrepreneurial venture grows bigger than you and you have to bring in help. And then, you get to see all of these people that you bring alongside of you prosper and do well and you get to see their opportunities. There’s just nothing more exciting in the world to me than doing that and creating something out of nothing and creating opportunity for others. Anyway, I told you before the show, I’m excited to uncap this and so‑

Philippa Kennealy: Well yes, and I will add one more thing that I discovered for myself. Medicine itself consists of fairly reductive thinking. You have to start with multiple possibilities and hone it down to the diagnosis, the thing you have. It’s a very reductive process in your thinking. Entrepreneurship is what, a lot of people get squirmy around that and think well, it’s all about money, and some doctors are really uncomfortable with that idea. It’s about going after money, and I say, “No. It’s not. It’s about a radical act of creativity.”

Josh Mettle: Yes.

Philippa Kennealy: This is where you have expansive thinking. You start with one possibility and expand it out to many or you take one idea and you adapt it and you look for opportunity, and as say you create the opportunity. And so, I think it’s the most creative thing I’ve done in my professional life ‑ all my life I would say.

Josh Mettle: I applaud you for that. All right so let’s talk a little bit about some of the major changes that are happening in medicine and maybe some things that you’re watching carefully such as Obamacare, the trend away from private practice towards hospitals, and how do you see those trends affecting physicians across the country?

Philippa Kennealy: Well, as we all know, medicine is in a dramatic state of flux and change. Really, what’s happening is that we’re moving steadily from a very fragmented cottage industry to an attempt at sort of corporatizing and standardizing practice into these sort of big entities, you know subsets of a national health plan, and you might even think of it that way.

Josh Mettle: Right.

Philippa Kennealy: Just variations on the theme, really. The shift for physicians is from this idea of rugged individualism to having to become members in teams, to group thinking, to collaboration. There is a younger generation of physicians that has come through both schooling, high schooling and now medical schooling and college schooling that has put them in situations where they learn how to work on projects in teams and things like that. But for the older generation of physicians, that’s not necessarily what we learned. This is a big shift, and a challenging shift for us.

In terms of the impact on physicians, I think that first of all there is an enormous need for educated, well-trained physician leaders. Only true physician leaders can really understand the impact of their decisions on that sort of bedside intimate relationship with the patient. Unless you’ve delivered care in that fashion, you don’t understand the impact of your decisions really. You may have sort of a general feel for them, but you don’t have a deep experience with this. I think that there is an enormous opportunity and need for physicians to move into significant leadership positions. Whether that’s intra-preneurial or whether that’s got nothing to do with entrepreneurship whatsoever, I think that’s a big trend.

I think physicians are either going to have to move forward and be in medicine fundamentally as team players and influences or many of them are looking to find ways to get out of this trend and moving towards sort of a more concierge style model and something that will still support their individual practices or moving into nonclinical businesses. I sort of see a split really starting to happen.

Josh Mettle: Yeah. The question that I ask is in my mind, I’m thinking, “What are these trends?” And as you mentioned kind of a form of nationalizing medicine, said a different way, but the end result is similar where there is a standardization of practice and regulation and more levels of bureaucracy. I wonder what that does long term to not only entrepreneurial private practice groups and the individual physicians there, but what about ingenuity. What about creating – if everyone thinks and acts and does the same and follows one another, does it leave room or it is a productive environment for creating new solutions, new devices, new healthcare breakthroughs? And that’s really the opinion I wanted to get from you and maybe I’ve delivered my opinion, so it’s not fair to say, but‑

Philippa Kennealy: Well again, I don’t know that I fully know the answer to that because I think a lot of it is going to be dependent on two major factors. Number 1 is, on the physician him or herself. What is the absolute instinctive drive within them? Some of them are just, they can’t help themselves, they are innovative. They are inventive. That’s the way their minds work, but I think the other factor is also going to be where there’s funding, you know I think enlightened organizations will set aside funding or will come up with the funding or will have the mechanisms to get grants, to sponsor R&D.

Josh Mettle: Yeah.

Philippa Kennealy: You know research and development within organizations. I think they’ll have centers of innovations, and I certainly know that there are some institutions that have already established these. Those physicians who are attracted to this area will gravitate to those centers or those departments. I don’t know. Again I don’t know that I know the answer to that, but I don’t feel terribly pessimistic about that piece.

Josh Mettle: I’m glad to hear you say that then. Great. I’ll leave it at that. Let’s talk about physicians when they start to entertain the idea of starting their own practice and moving on to more entrepreneurial roles. Let’s talk about a few of the most common things that physicians struggle with when trying to make that leap.

Philippa Kennealy: I think a couple of issues. Probably the first thing is just a resource issue. It’s either money. Well, it’s any of the three: it’s money, time, or energy. Do they have the money? Can they afford to pull away from whatever they’re doing based on the lifestyle that they’ve established for themselves, and get something going? Do they have the energy of the many, many hours that they’re putting into their jobs? Do they have the time left over from the hours that they work? I think a scarcity of resources in that sense can sometimes be a challenge.

And then, when it comes to practicalities of the business, I think having a sort of a disciplined approach to defining a business model is a challenge. I think physicians just sort of get an idea and sort of jump into things and haven’t had really – and I know this for myself. I mean you just haven’t had the training to understand that you want to define a business model. It may not become the ultimate business model that you use, but you want to start somewhere with a little bit of a rigorous, disciplined, thoughtful approach to it and then also understanding if there is a viable marketplace for what it is that they want to put out there. It’s defining the service or defining the product in its beta form and then finding a way to reach a marketplace with a compelling enough message. Again, back to this idea of marketing. Putting all this together, I think is among the most challenging in the beginning.

Josh Mettle: That’s great. You outlined that perfectly. I want to get more into solutions, but before we do that, let’s talk about the inner game. I think oftentimes when you talk about money, time, and energy, those are kind of outside, outer game issues, but oftentimes, there’s mental blocks and potential solutions. I’m wondering what solutions have you found or have you been able to help your physician clients to overcome mentally what challenges when they’re contemplating starting an entrepreneurial venture.

Philippa Kennealy: I think the biggest thing that most physicians, unless they’re built a different way, but I’d say that most physicians are fairly conservative when it comes to making major changes in their life simply because number one they do have big financial commitments either because they have established a lifestyle that they have gotten used to and/or they have these horrendous medical school loans that they still owe $200,000 at the age of 40 and stuff like that, along with mortgages and families and things like that. There is a practical reality, but I think there is also this idea – there is fear.

Josh Mettle: Yes.

Philippa Kennealy: There is a lot of fear around risk-taking that they’ve gotten comfortable with a certain way even if it’s as they say a comfortable coffin, a satin-lined coffin. For many of the physicians, they feel like they are in a coffin. They feel like they’re at a dead-end, and they’re very frustrated, but they are afraid of making a change and upsetting a lifestyle that they have gotten used to and has a potential to impact the other people who are near and dear around them. I think fear of change I think is difficult.

 

I think the other piece that is a big attachment for physicians is that there is a very strong identity around being a practicing physician. Even though it’s changed in some sense within society, there’s nevertheless a strong attachment to this identity of physician. The idea of moving away from delivering care and being one of those physicians who really isn’t practicing medicine any longer and has sort of gotten an altered identity is very challenging to deal with, and a lot of the work we do is around identity and contribution and meaning and living one’s best life. The inner game is actually vitally important in addressing and is a crucial part of the work that I do with my clients because as trivial as it sounds, it is often the biggest stumbling block to physicians being successful in an entirely new role.

Josh Mettle: I’m glad I asked that question because you know I don’t know much about practicing medicine. But I do know a few things about launching businesses and investments and making scary decisions, you know really just based on your gut and intuition and the amount of research and education you’re able to do prior to actually pulling the trigger, and fear is huge. It’s one of those things that you have to just be able to compartmentalize and say, “What’s the positive outcome? What’s the worst-case scenario? Can I survive the worst-case scenario? Okay, good. I’ve done all the research I can. I’m just going to take that leap. When you’re already in a position, as you say that is comfortable, the famous Jim Collins book, Good is the Enemy of Great.

Philippa Kennealy: Yeah.

Josh Mettle: They’re even maybe even uncomfortable, unfulfilled maybe like you were nine years into practice, but is it uncomfortable enough to face the fear? And so, I thought that may be part of what you do and I appreciate you sharing that with us.

Philippa Kennealy: It’s really, really important.

Josh Mettle: Once you’ve helped and coached your clients to kind of visualize, I’m assuming, what that full level of achievement and accomplishment in an entrepreneurial venture could look like and how that could feel and affect them, once they’ve overcome the mental hurdles, then what are some of the ways that you coach physicians to get started towards owning their own businesses and actually tangibly taking steps?

Philippa Kennealy: Well, if I understand your question correctly, I mean some of the ways in which physicians start businesses are they start them on the side. They continue to do some practice, and they start them on the side, and they start small. Very often physician businesses are service oriented rather than product oriented. You know they’re not pumping out manufacturing things very often.

Josh Mettle: Right.

Philippa Kennealy: Occasionally they are, but typically they’re starting some sort of service type of business, so they’re able to deliver those services to some extent on the side, or they are in a position, I mean I’ve worked with physicians where their job is coming to an end. I mean in this day and age, who would have thought that physicians would lose their jobs, but they do. But they have a date on the horizon when they know that their job is coming to an end, and they need to get something in place by then, and so they will begin preparations for moving into something more fulltime.

Josh Mettle: Right.

Philippa Kennealy: And you know, sometimes our work is somewhat accelerated because we got a specific timeline and we have to get something done. Another way that I see physicians do this and I think it’s a really smart way to do this is to bump into or cultivate a working partnership with somebody who brings to the table a different complementary skill set and interest and training, so they’ll partner up with someone who’s got business experience and who’s looking for what the physician has to offer and the physician is looking for that, you know that business experience. I think that’s a really successful model for a lot of physicians if they can overcome their need to be in charge of everything.

Josh Mettle: Right.

Philippa Kennealy: The idea that they can tap into an existing model of business or put their heads together. I’ve got a client right now who’s actually doing that, he’s got a three-way business, too. Two of them are physicians and one of them is a business person, and that I think is a really smart way to put your foot in the water because you’re partnering up, and again, I always talk to them about partnerships and say, “You know partnerships are like marriages. You don’t want to go into this lightly. You want to be very thoughtful about this in much the same way as you’d put a prenuptial agreement together.”

Josh Mettle: That’s right.

Philippa Kennealy: “You want to put a partnership agreement together that stipulates how you will deal with certain situations when they arise long before they’ve arisen, and you’ll want to spell out the ways in which you’ll tackle differences or challenges or differences of opinion and things like that. Come to your agreement upfront way before you ever need these.”  But I think it’s a good way to go for many physicians who don’t necessarily have the business experience.

Josh Mettle: Yeah. Nobody ever wants to talk about the breakup or the divorce, but as you said like a prenup, it’s very wise in the front end to say, “I think you’re great, and I hope this works, and I hope we sing Kumbaya forever, but if we don’t, we need to talk about what is the dissolving of the business look like. I think when you do that upfront and all the cards are on the table, and you clearly have a partnership agreement that says who does what and if it doesn’t work out, how are you going to split the baby and go your separate ways, it makes going into a partnership a little less scary if you just have that talk up front, and it’s all written and agreed to.

Philippa Kennealy: Well, yes, and I would throw one more thing in there, not just how you would split up, but it’s how you would handle a disagreement before you run off to lawyers. Will you sit down across the table from each other and bring the issues up? Are you willing to commit to that kind of communication amongst yourselves? Are you willing to mediate? Are you willing to bring in an outside expert to help you work through an issue that you’ve bumped into? That stuff doesn’t necessarily involve dissolution of the relationship but actually involves the ways to preserve and protect the relationship.

Josh Mettle: Do you actually include that in your partnership agreement? Is that what you’re saying? That’s a section in your partnership agreement as to how you’re‑

Philippa Kennealy: There’s absolutely no reason why not to put that in there. Absolutely. We agree that this is how we’re going to behave towards each other when we have differences of opinion.

Josh Mettle: I’m taking notes. Thank you. I love that. I’m working on a partnership with another company right now.

Philippa Kennealy: Terrific.

Josh Mettle: And that is not in there, and it will be. Taking this leap, you are, I’m going to say rare among MDs, in that you’re an opportunity see-er and a risk taker to some degree, maybe not in your own eyes, but I think most physicians would see you as such. You took this leap or ended up taking this final leap to start your company as The Entrepreneurial MD, and you did that because one position came to an end, and you were kind of already on the plank, and you decided to just keep walking.

Philippa Kennealy: Exactly. I like that analogy.

Josh Mettle: Yeah, yeah. Back to the pirates, I’ll just walk the plank. And so, I like how you talk about not necessarily giving up everything that you’ve already done – the lifestyle and the income and what you’re comfortable with – but slowly starting something on the side, testing it, seeing if it has legs, seeing if the need is there, maybe getting some education and some marketing and just nurture it a little bit and see if it starts to take off. I think that helps a lot with fear, is the understanding that you don’t have to walk the plank like you did. You can, just take baby steps and walk safely between one to the other.

Philippa Kennealy: Absolutely. I mean I think that’s an excellent way of describing it, yes.

Josh Mettle: Well, you’ve been at this for a long time, and I sense this now comes easy for you. But what would you do differently if you were a physician entrepreneur starting all over again, is there anything that you could think that you could do differently or that you could leave us with a last few gems?

Philippa Kennealy: I think the thing that I would probably do differently and would still do at this point should I encounter the right person is I think I would open myself up to partnering quicker and making that decision, making that leap. It’s been challenging finding someone who does understand physicians, does understand coaching, and does understand something about business, and it’s a sort of a triple thing going on here, but I think you know really opening myself up, I think it would have allowed me to sort of grow and expand.

As it turns out, it’s worked out fine, simply because I’m at the stage in my life, you know I had a child late in life and has really wanted to focus on being a mom and have not wanted to give myself entirely over to my business and grow it as rapidly as I did want to when I first set it up. But I think had I known back then that the opportunity to really grow and expand this business, I mean I knew there was an opportunity, but had I known that it probably would involve bringing in others, training others, I would have jumped into that sooner. I think that’s what I would have done differently. Other than that, I don’t know that I would have done – I mean I’ve loved the learning.

Interestingly enough, I’ve done a lot of podcasts myself and talked to physician who got into business themselves and asked them about the role of getting an extra degree like an MBA. A lot of physicians think that the only way they will into business is if they go back to school and get an MBA. And yet, most of the successful physician entrepreneurs that I have talked to, because I actually have a podcast series called Conversations with Trailblazers, where I interview successful entrepreneurial physicians, by far the greatest majority have no extra degrees. They just, you know, develop their business savvy on their own, and it’s always the question that I ask them is how did you learn about business. Invariably, they sort of learned it on the job. I think that’s also something that I would encourage physicians to get out of their minds is you do not have to get a huge, big old degree to help you become a successful entrepreneur.

Josh Mettle: I agree. In any business or many businesses and many successful leaders that I see that it is the real-life experience and years in the field far more than the degree that feeds them and is the key to their success. I want to step back just a second for partnership because you told me that was what you wish that you maybe would have done differently, but let’s just spend a second and expand upon what it is and what it is that partnership may have brought to you.

If I may, in my world, I have two young children, and I have a business partner who has two young children. It’s done a couple of things for me. Number one, it’s given me leverage when we’re both focused and when we’re both on it, we can decide who’s going to take what tasks, and we can move down multiple avenues at the same time. One of those might be business expansion. One of those might be getting the job done, one of those might be coaching and training, but we can move in more directions at one time than you can if you are the one doing everything, and that’s helped me from a leverage perspective, but also from a quality of life perspective. It came to my mind because you mentioned you had a child late, and there are times I feel especially when you’re running a business that you have to be able to just get away and just love on your family and your spouse and your child. If you are the only person who can make all the decisions, that becomes really hard to ever turn the phone and the email off.

Philippa Kennealy: That’s it. That’s absolutely true. I would agree. I mean I pride myself on my responsiveness and try to get back as promptly as I can to inquiries or to clients sending me communications, and so it does mean that, I mean I feel very fortunate in the sense that you know it’s not a high-demand business with a really difficult group of clients. They happen to be very self-sufficient, intelligent people that I am working with‑

Josh Mettle: Right.

Philippa Kennealy: I’m blessed with that, so I’m not inundated with requests and calls and things like that to do a lot of handholding. It’s been a wonderful part of the work that I do, and I think it’s what sustains me and keeps me doing this work is the great group of people that I work with. But I certainly think that in terms of sort of leveraging time, leveraging resources to build something a little bit more of an empire quality where there is a sort of legacy to it, I definitely feel that it would benefit from putting multiple heads together and outsourcing ‑ I mean, certainly outsource stuff. I don’t do $10 an hour work.

Josh Mettle: Sure.

Philippa Kennealy: And I don’t do $25 an hour work, but outsourcing and really beginning to prioritize some of the work that I have created as well.

Josh Mettle: Well, Philippa thank you. Thank you for your time and for sharing so generously with us. We uncapped some really fun stuff about the inner game and a few steps to getting started and partnering and your great comment about creating a communication or mediation agreement inside the partnership agreement. I’m going to use that personally. So I thank you very much for your advice and your coaching. As I’m sure, our listeners may want to connect with you. What is the best way for them to tap into you – you know you mentioned your podcast, but give us some ways that we can get more information and then if we want to reach out directly to you, how do we do that?

Philippa Kennealy: Probably the best way is through my website, so the website is you can either Google my name, Philippa Kennealy, and it will jump right up. I have hours and hours of content on my website that is entirely free. The website itself is The Entrepreneurial MD, and that’s entrepreneurialmd.com. If you want to email me, it would be philippa, P-H-I-L-I-P-P-A, @temdhome, (philippa@temdhome.com) that’s theentrepreneurialmdhome.com, temdhome.com, or I can be reached in the Pacific Time Zone at (310) 476-6116. That would be my business line, so I would welcome any inquiries, or comments, or thoughts, conversations. I love having conversation.

Josh Mettle: I can tell. We’re going to put a link to your site. With your permission, I’d also love to put a link to your podcast. I think that would be valuable for our listeners as well.

Philippa Kennealy: That’s terrific. It’s just under a category called Conversations with Trailblazers.

Josh Mettle: Beautiful. Again, Philippa, thank you for your time. It was a pleasure and I appreciate you coming on the show. We’ll connect soon.

Philippa Kennealy: I enjoyed it greatly, Josh. Thanks so much.