Jon Appino – Contract Diagnostics

Jon Appino founder of Contract Diagnostics which specializes in translating complicated physicianemployment contracts into plain English. There is a real significant need for this service and Jon taught us some mind opening info, like:

  • How not knowing what your contract specifies can cost you
  • What the Contract in English is and why it is important
  • How his service differs from a typical attorney’s contract review and why you should care
  • What the cost for a Contract in English is and the different packages he offers
  • How the devil is in the details of your contract

Josh Mettle: Hello and welcome to the Physician Financial Success Podcast. My name is Josh Mettle, and this is the podcast dedicated to advising physicians how to avoid financial landmines. Today, we’ll be talking with Jon Appino, principal at Contract Diagnostics, a company that specializes in translating complicated physician-employment contracts into plain English. I can’t tell you how excited I am about this show because there’s a real significant need for this service, and so, we’ll get right into it. Jon, welcome to the show. How are you today?

Jon Appino: Josh, I’m doing well. I’m doing well. Thanks for having me.

Josh Mettle: Absolutely. We appreciate your time, and I want to get right into things, but before we get into some key points, I would love just a real quick background on how you got into Contract Diagnostics and how that all came about.

Jon Appino: Sure, absolutely. I started my first company when I was 17 years old. I’ve always found a way to provide a variety of different services that are in need at the time, and I saw another one when I was 20 went to work for a large corporation in my early 20s where I met a lot of physicians and befriended them. I realized that you know just like us, they’re everyday people, hardworking individuals, and they got a lot on their plate. They’re busy. There are a lot of people wanting their time.

Josh Mettle: Yes.

Jon Appino: Time is of the essence obviously because they’re so busy, and not only are they professionals with a very important career making us all feel well and help save our lives and everything out there. They are also people with social lives and everything else. So, they’re very busy. In my conversations with my friends, I realized that there is a big need around, you know the transition process from – I’m in-training or I’m in a position and I want to go to a different position, or I want to start my career because the physicians obviously the unemployment rate is very low, and so, they’re going to get the employment contracts. They could be 20 page, 30 page documents, and they have no idea what they say.

They’re physicians, they want to help us. They don’t want to become lawyers or business professionals, and so, there was a big need to help them understand it. Again, a lot of my friends had kind of walked me through their process for how they had their contracts reviewed, if they even did have them reviewed. They were, needless to say, they were very unhappy with the process. And so, we kind of started off on this fundamental belief that there’s got to be a better way to get this done, and that’s kind of why we created Contract Diagnostics. It wasn’t a bunch of us sitting in a boardroom, thinking about how we could make money. It was a market that had a need, and so, we basically went to the physicians, had then create a lot of our models, and just found a way that we could kind of run the programs that they were asking for. So, it’s been a great couple of years. We’ve really been ramped up, and it’s been a lot of fun. I think, we obviously, we learn every day, and we really enjoy serving the other physicians that we have as clients.

Josh Mettle: Great. As you were explaining that, you did it perfectly where physicians are interested in saving lives and not so much diving into 50-page contracts. I had a client last year who had two contracts. He had his own subcontract, and it was part of a larger group. It was well over a hundred pages between the two contracts. There was actually like a third contract somehow in there. Come to find out, he didn’t even know that he’d signed a contract that said he was a 1099’d employee. That was‑

Jon Appino: Wow.

Josh Mettle: Totally, nobody had ever brought that to him. It was just kind of like, “Hey, here’s the big picture. Sign here,” and he just moved forward on that accord. There’s a huge need for what you’re doing. I appreciate it. Let’s dive into the rest here. On your website, you get real specific about offering a comprehensive physician contract review, and you point out the differences of your system and processes and that how they’re different to a typical lawyer doing a contract review. I don’t really understand those differences. Help me with that and help our listeners.

Jon Appino: Sure, so again the feedback that we got from physicians was, if they were having their contract reviewed, and if, because they don’t know where to turn. And so, they would maybe go to Goggle and just search, you know, contract lawyer and Tennessee, or a contract lawyer or Tennessee lawyer, or whatever it is kind of rolling the dice on who you get, but what makes our process different is that we just don’t look at it from a, you know, a lawyer’s perspective. All we do at Contract Diagnostics is physician contract reviews. As you can imagine a general lawyer who sits in an office and may litigate against a physician one day, they may work on a divorce the next day, they may work on,  you know, patent infringement the day after that, and then, when a physician calls him and says, “Can you look at my contract?”

He’ll say, “Sure. You know, for a couple of hundred dollars, I’ll look at it.” Obviously, they don’t specialize in it. They don’t do it every day and so they miss a lot of things that maybe important in the physician contract. Since all we do are physician contracts, we are up to speed on all the nuances and all the differences regarding physician compensation, how the Affordable Care Act can affect and change contracts, how the sustainable growth rate formula, and what Congress is doing, how that can affect physician payments. We really keep an eye on all the different things that affect the compensation, not just is it legal or is it illegal.

We kind of look at, you know, which a traditional lawyer generally does. We kind of look at the contract in three areas, and if you want to call it, like a triple review. It’s obviously the legal portion of it is important. It’s got to line up. It’s got to be legal. It can’t have anything in the contract that shouldn’t be in there, okay. That’s first and foremost.

But we also look at it from a benefits perspective. Everything – benefits from malpractice insurance to time off. What happens to your time off? If you leave, will it roll over? We’ll look at your disability insurance, your life insurance, what your retirement plan looks like, everything with regards to the benefits plan.

We’ll also look at your compensation structure. As you can imagine, you know, you have physicians with a 50-page, 100-page contract, these compensation structures can get very intricate, very detailed, and we spend a lot of time reviewing that because obviously, that’s an important part of the contract, right? How the physician provides for their family? Why they spent a quarter of a million dollars and, you know 10 years of their life sometimes training for this, is to be fairly compensated. We’ll make sure that not only do we look at it and do we understand it, but we also present all three of those things: the legal, the benefits, and then the compensation back to the physician in an educational manner, so they understand exactly what it says.

What we don’t do, and again one of the many things that make us different from a lot of firms out there is what we don’t do is we don’t call the physician and say, “The contract looks great. Go ahead and sign it.” We actually walk him through the document line by line. We actually created a whole separate template called the Contract in English that walks him through the contact exactly what it says in plain English, taking out all of the legal language. So we could take that 50-page contract that your client has and condense it to about three pages of just plain English that they can read and they can understand at any time, but we still go over that with them, we educate them around the terms, not just tell them that it looks good, so they know exactly what they’re signing. Even if the contact is nonnegotiable, so you know, sometimes somebody will say this is a boilerplate agreement, and we don’t negotiate, it’s still important to know what’s in there. With our system, you actually understand and know what’s in there.

A couple of other things that kind of differentiates it, if you look at the compensation structure, since all we do are physician contracts, we have a very robust database. We have databases as far as you know, what the average signing bonus should be in the area, the compensation trends, what bonuses could be, what the average vacation time is, all that kind of stuff internally in our database. But we also every year, we purchase the NGMA National Physician Survey. We can tell a physician, if you’re going to be a private practice, you know orthopedics surgeon in Austin, Texas, we could tell you, “Here’s what the compensation structure should look like. Here is what you should be starting at.”

Josh Mettle: Wow.

Jon Appino: Whether you got one-year experience, whether you got 10 years of experience. We can provide that to the physician again in an educational way to make sure that they understand everything around the contract, not just, “It looks good. Go ahead and sign it,” or not just, “It’s legal or if it’s illegal,” but from an entire perspective, the contract looks good or it doesn’t look good – there are a couple of things that could be modified, there are a couple of things that could be changed. We do look at the process much differently, which we feel, and all of our clients appreciate is very, very much needed in the marketplace.

One last thing on this thing, Josh, one thing since we do specialize in physician contracts, what we don’t do is we don’t outsource the physician to another attorney, and we don’t try to sell them anything. Obviously, these physicians are in a transition process where they need a lot of faith, as you guys well know. All we do are physician contracts, we don’t try to tag on other things. We don’t want try to sell them you know, investments or disability insurance. All we do are the contracts. We’re specialists, just like a lot of the physicians we serve are specialists. We’re not generalists. We focus specifically on the physician contract, and we take care of everything in house, and we think it’s a pretty cool system that we have now, so.

Josh Mettle: That’s great. It sounds like you break it down into those three areas where you decipher it. So, everybody understands exactly what it means. You don’t get lost in the 50 pages and the multiple chapters. And then, and then –

Jon Appino: Yeah.

Josh Mettle: You do a full analysis on where we stand. Does your benefit stack out? Does the compensation, does all of the rest of the insurances stack up? And then, I can see from the standpoint, especially of a newly attending or resident have no clue how they compare, huge value there.

Jon Appino: Yeah. A lot of times, you know, we’ll see in contracts, you know, your base salary is about $200,000. And for every RVU, over 1,250 per quarter, you’ll receive $45. That’s great, right? Very easy to understand, but physicians, is 1,250, is that a good number or is it a bad number.

Josh Mettle: Right, exactly.

Jon Appino: I mean does the average physician do 10,000 in which case you’re really going to do well? Does the average physician do 600? In which case, you’re never going to earn a bonus, and so, the compensation structure could be very good, very robust, but if the expectations are completely off base, then it may not matter. And so, those are things that we can definitely walk the physician through and not just tell him, “It looks good or it looks bad, but walk him through in an educational manner and let them know exactly what it is that they’re signing, so.

Josh Mettle: So, at the end of day, just out of curiosity, it sounds like you’re going to get, what I’m going to receive, if I’m your client, is I’m going to get something that basically deciphers the contract, and then, there’s an additional packet that comes along that does like a kind of a line-by-line compensation and benefit comparison. What does the physician receive at the end of the day?

Jon Appino: Yeah. So they get a, we actually call it our Contract in English. So, we take all the legal language out of the contract and just write what the contract‑

Josh Mettle: Right.

Jon Appino: It’s actually a re-write of the contract. It’s about two pages or three pages, so you see that in a PDF file that you can keep and save and refer to whenever you need. We usually do go over that line by line while we do your review versus you know just some hand scribbles on the actual contract and some bullet-point notes. We actually take the time to create the extra document. And then, we’ve got a variety of different package options, but if they do select our most popular package, the advanced review, we actually give them the same kind of PDF of the same format as the contract re-draft, but it has all the compensation data points on there. So, here, you know depending on your situation. So if you’re a resident or a fellow out of training, here’s what the average compensation is, if it’s a hospital employment position, or a private practice, or if it’s a government account, are the unions involved, or if there’s collections involved, or if there’s a signing bonus, vacation times. We have all that information on the data sheet, and we also include just the overall snapshots.

If you’re a resident, you may start off at a certain salary, and I should say a first-year physician coming out of residency, to start off at a given salary, maybe a bonus, but you may be curious. “Hey, what’s average for three years? What’s average for five years or ten years in my position in this vocation?” We can pull that data and share it with you as well. Not only do you know, here’s what the expectations will be on your terms, but if I’m average, or if I’m in the 75th percentile or 90th percentile, or the 25th percentile, here’s where I may be from a compensation perspective in you know 2 years, 5 years, 10 years down the road. It really provides an awful lot of information that the physicians really, really appreciate. Obviously, physicians are data driven. I mean they look at studies all day, and they treat patients based on, you know, clinical data and clinical studies, and we give them lots of numbers, lots of things to chew on, which they’ve really appreciated.

Josh Mettle: Great. I get it. Okay, so what I’d love is if you could run me through a real-life example of a client that you’re either able to help or you were able to really kind of surprise them as to what was in the contract unbeknownst to them, and how you were specifically able to help them negotiate better terms?

Jon Appino: Right, so we do serve everything from, you know, residents and fellows coming out of training. I think our most experienced physician was a 65-year-old physician who was kind of integrating his practice into the hospital. So, we serve a variety of different physicians, not just one or the other. Because of that, we’ve get a lot of really, really good success stories, but I can just talk about kind of what we’re working on, I mean, one of our deals we have today. We’ve got a physician who’s relocating from Nebraska. He’s a hospitalist. He went to Nebraska after training, signed the contract, didn’t have anybody review it. He’s now transitioning to Ohio. His wife’s family is from Ohio, so they’re going to move back to Ohio or move to Ohio and start what he hopes to be a long-term career. Obviously, we’re reviewing his contract in Ohio to make sure that lines up with everything that he needs. Because his family is from there, we look at the contract in a specific light because obviously they’re looking at a long-term deal, not something you know short-term or‑

Josh Mettle: Right.

Jon Appino: Not something more financially rewarding, but something, he says, “I want to be here for 20 or 30 years.” Obviously, we take those things into account when we review the contract. But we also go back and we’re also looking at his current contract. He didn’t have it reviewed, so he doesn’t know a whole lot about it. We’ve got to talk to him about obviously, a non-compete doesn’t exist – I mean it does, but he’s moving to Ohio, so it’s not really relevant. Things like, how does his tail insurance get paid? Does he have to owe any money when he exits the practice? One thing that we did find his contract was that if he stays on until June 30, he receives a $15,000 bonus. If he leaves before June 30th, he’ll receive nothing. So if his last day was June 29th, so he got zero. If his last day is June 30th, he receives $15,000. So, just by him having us look at that contract, we can help guide him through what could be a very costly mistake. We had seen physicians, and this is in general, we had a physician who actually lost – this is going to sound excessive – but actually lost $80,000 because he quit on a Friday, okay, and not on a Monday.

Josh Mettle: Oh, my gosh.

Jon Appino: Because the way the contract was worded was he had to fulfill a certain quarterly, he had to work through the quarter in order to receive a bonus that was from the year previous. It was more like a retention bonus.

Josh Mettle: Wow.

Jon Appino: Because he left on a Friday, he didn’t get the $80,000, and he had no recourse because he just didn’t know. Obviously, one quick phone call to us, if he was one of our clients, a very quick phone call and maybe a couple hours later as we dive into your deal would have shown us to tell him not to quit until the week after, and he would have had $80,000 more in his checking account. So, we have a lot of examples like that, but it just really emphasizes how important it is to, number 1, get your deals looked at, your contracts looked at by somebody who knows what they’re doing. And number 2, I mean you’ve got to have that be somebody who knows what they’re doing, not just have it reviewed to check a box, but have it done by somebody who does a lot of these, who knows exactly what they’re doing, somebody obviously like Contract Diagnostics. We’re a little biased over here, but we got a lot of great examples.

We actually had one physician that came in here, and he said he was curious about us because he’s seen us – he’d read a couple of articles that we wrote for PracticeLink.com, and he had used a previous firm to review his last two contracts, and he was happy with them, so he was curious about us. After the review, of course, I kind of asked him, “Totally honest, totally kind, what do you think?”

And he said, “It was far superior, because of our process that we have down, because we have the Contract in English, that separate document.” He said the last two reviews, he’d basically gotten a couple of bullet-point notes written about the contract, and then a 10 to 15 minute call to talk about the bad parts of the contract, and that’s it. So, he really liked the fact that we walked him through everything in the contract, not just, here’s what the issues are.

Yeah, we’ve got lots of examples over here, as far as how we’ve been able to help physicians, you know, either integrate to a hospital, do a partnership with a group, come out of training and negotiate, you know, better terms, as far as a non-compete, picking up tail insurance or having certain parts of the contract dissolved, you know. Since all we do are contract review, obviously we’ve got a lot of great success stories, and a lot of happy clients.

Josh Mettle: Yeah, I noticed on your website, contractdiagnostics.com, there are some great testimonials from the physicians that you’ve served. So certainly, folks can go there if they want to know more. So, my question is, and I was thinking it first, before I started the conversation that, this was really something that would be most useful for younger physicians, newly attending, and then, you told me the story of the 65 year old physician integrating his practice into a hospital system, and I thought, “Well, wait a minute. That’s the guy who’s probably got the most to lose or the most to gain with a bad contract.” So really, I see the value spread across the spectrum of experience or inexperienced. For the‑

Jon Appino: Yeah, I mean you can really ‑ I mean everybody, obviously, these are contracts that are very worth, you know, most likely, $1 million or more dollars over the course of the employment. Not to have them reviewed when you spent a quarter of a million dollars and 10 years of your life, for what is seemingly not a lot of money, is something that obviously we don’t recommend not having it reviewed since it’s such an easy and seamlessly quick process.

Josh Mettle: Yeah, and so that really brings me to my next question, which is, “What does it all cost, and if we are talking about a med student going into residency or a young resident going into attending, how do they pay for it? Just walk us down that path.

Jon Appino: Right, great question. So, I don’t know exactly why some physicians don’t get their contract reviewed. I don’t know if it is a financial barrier. I don’t know if they feel it’s a standard contract, and they don’t need to have it reviewed, but we tried to take down all the barriers that physicians would have, including cost. All we do are physician contracts which makes us very efficient and very fluid at it since we do a lot of them. They may take us slightly less time than it takes a traditional firm who doesn’t do a lot of them because we do a lot of them here, but we’ve got different packages. If the physician can kind of select the package that he or she feels is in their best interest.

So our most popular package, I’ll just tell you, it’s called the advanced review. It’s 76% of all the reviews we do, so obviously a very, very popular package. What we do is we take the contract, and we do our triple review process where you get the Contract in English document, you get all the compensation data, you get a session with us on the phone. It’s not timed. It’s just however much you need in order to get your questions answered. We then support you as you go through the process. They can call us back if they have a question, the can email us back and forth. There is no additional charge for those things. Again, as we did our focus groups, a lot of physicians told us, “If I have a question I don’t want to be charged 15 minutes at you know $300 an hour ‑

Josh Mettle: Absolutely.

Jon Appino: just to call and ask a question.

Josh Mettle: Yeah.

Jon Appino: So, we said, “Okay. Great. We’ll set it up where you can call us as much as you need. You can email us as much as you need. There’s no charge for it.” We actually let physicians call us a couple of months into the contract if they have a question. One of our calls today actually is, with an orthopedic guy in Texas, they actually revised his compensation agreement, an addendum. So, we’re taking a look at that for him today. We’re not going charging him anything for it. Those are all things that you get with our advanced review. It’s $700 is the total price for it.

What we do for residents and fellows is we actually have what we call flex pay because again, when we did our focus group, a lot of the residents and fellows said, “That will be the best package. That would be the one that I would want.You get a lot of information and $700 seems very reasonable, but I may not have $700 as a resident‑

Josh Mettle: Right.

Jon Appino: depending on how much moonlighting how much I’m doing and everything else.” So, what we did to take away that barrier is we do what we call Flex Pay. So, it’s $200 to start, and the remaining isn’t even due until after you start working. It takes away, and your income obviously goes up from a resident to an employed physician.

Josh Mettle: Right.

Jon Appino: So, it takes away that financial barrier as far as, “I have a document. I need to get it reviewed. I know I need to get it reviewed, but I’m going to choose the cheapest person because that’s all I can afford.”

Josh Mettle: Right.

Jon Appino: Or, “I’m not going to have it reviewed at all because I don’t have any money, and I don’t think it’s worth it.” So, for $200, you can get one of our most popular packages, and you’ll get all the bits and pieces of information that you can possibly imagine on the contract and unlimited access to us to call back as much as you need and get all your questions answered. That’s our most popular package by far. We do have a package above that. That’s a negotiation package where we do all the negotiations for the physician. So, it’s the same process as the advanced review, but we do all the negotiations for them. That adds $1,000, so it’s $1,700 total, so we’ll actually call the employer and we’ll do all the negotiations on the contract that we feel are important based on our conversation with the physician.

And we have a less expensive package. It’s called the basic review. It’s a similar process as the advanced review, a little bit less detailed. We don’t do the compensation data. We just do one initial call and try to get all your questions answered during that initial call, and because of that, it’s a lower price point, it’s $400, and we just do the $400 due after the call, but it’s a good package. But most physicians feel that that additional $300 investment into the advanced review is well worth it because you get an awful lot more information and access to us.

Josh Mettle: Absolutely.

Jon Appino: We do actually offer a $200 package. We generally kind of recommend it for academic contracts because they tend to be a little bit easier for us, so there is less time, so we charge them less. We have a $200 package called the quick review that we generally recommend for academic contracts or any, you know, standardized government contracts. We also allow physicians to use the quick review for if they have multiple reviews. Sometimes, physicians on their interview will get three contracts. They don’t want to spend $700 on each of them, so what we do is we’ll take a look at all three of them, and you don’t get a Contract in English, you don’t get a document, you don’t go over everything, but we look at kind of the high points, and we can compare them. We can compare one compensation structure to the next, what the tail insurance looks like, what the benefits look like, just kind of a general 30,000 foot level item. And then, what we do is based on our conversation with the physician, we can recommend whichever contract we feel lines up to his or her career goals, whether it’s you know prestige, whether it’s flexible time, whether it’s financial. We can say, “We feel that this one lines up best with your goals.” And then, what we do is we take that contract and then put that through an advanced review. That’s where they get a lot of information for a very reasonable price without having to spend a lot of money on three separate individual contract reviews. That’s very popular with residents and fellows who, you know, they’re coming out of training, and they got three contracts or four contracts that they’ve been looking at, and they like all of them and they don’t know which one to choose. We can kind of help them choose which one we feel would line up best with their career goals.

Josh Mettle: I don’t know why someone wouldn’t do a contract review. I mean we look at hundreds of them, and I’m telling you, sometimes we just get stumped, as many as we’ve seen, so it just it seems to make sense. But let’s say that somebody didn’t want to do a contract review. Can you give us just two or three things that our listeners should be looking for, just as maybe potential red flags, maybe something that should alert them that they really need more help with analyzing this thing?

Jon Appino: Yeah, absolutely. We always want to look at a contract and at the what ifs, right? What if things don’t work out? So, if things don’t work out, whether they terminate you or you end up walking away, what are the things that you need to know? Okay, what are your responsibilities? Financially, as far as paying back any bonuses or your relocation amount or tail insurance or a restrictive covenant. Making sure that you understand how those things and how they’re in effect, if they’re in effect with a no cause termination or with a for cause termination, or if a contract expires, or if the contract is not renewed, or if partnership is not offered or granted.

You know understanding the what ifs. What if these things don’t work out? I think would be very important because I think that allows physicians to have freedom. Again, depending on how the contract terminates, and if and when, you may be financially restricted, you may be geographically restricted as far as what you can or can’t do, and those are important things. And then also, I think a lot of contracts are very broad with regards to expectations around very important things, like call, like the schedule, the location of the physician, and so, you know, especially if you’re working for a single practice and they’ve got one location, it maybe not as important. But if you’re a hospitalist, and you’re working for you know a large system, and they’ve got 3 or 4 hospitals, and your contract says something similar to, “You’ll work at, in the facility on 123 Main Street or other facilities as dictated by the employer.” Obviously, your location is up in the air.

Josh Mettle: Right.

Jon Appino: They can send you wherever they want, and so I think it’s important to make sure that you have things, like as well as your schedule, right? If you’re a family medicine doctor are you working 8:00 to 5:00, do you have Thursday evening clinic? Do you have  a Saturday? Do you have urgent care hours from 7:00 until 9:00 in the morning twice a week? How do things and expectations with regards to your schedule, to your call, to your location in the contract are very important, and we like terms like mutually agreed upon changes or something similar. So, if the employer wants to change their location, they can ask the physician and the physician has to approve it in order for their location or schedule to be changed. So, those are a couple of kind of tips and pointers if they are looking at things themselves, but they should definitely keep an eye out because they could definitely be impactful not only on their position but on their potential long-term career.

Josh Mettle: That’s great. Yeah, there just seems to be some sort of a conflict there where the physician is, in my mind, so concerned with providing care and the hospital or the group is concerned with providing care and creating it as a profit and running a successful business. Therein lies probably that conflict that is so useful for what you do.

Jon Appino: Exactly.

Josh Mettle: Great man. Well, listen. It was great spending time with you. I appreciate learning about what you do for physicians, and we will certainly be referring you as much as possible, especially with the contracts that we see that are particularly confusing. I’d like to open this up in a way that our listeners could get a hold of you. So, what’ the best way? We talked about contractdiagnostics.com. There’s a ton of information there, but how else might our listeners contact you or someone on your staff to get answers?

Jon Appino: Sure. Our toll free number is (888) 574-5526, and they can always call that. A lot of times, we’re on the phone. Sometimes, email is great. My email address is info@contractdiagnostics.com, or they can just directly get hold of me at my, first name, jon, J-O-N, @contract diagnostics.com or my direct office line is (816) 288-3312. Again, it’s (816) 288-3312, and I encourage all your listeners to leave a message. If I can’t answer, I’m on the phone a lot in presentations and meetings quite often, so but we do return all of our calls for the day. They can hop to our website, contractdiagnostics.com. We’ve got a form on there. We can contact them. We’ve got a blog on there they can follow. We have our, you know general 800 number and then obviously my direct line. Again, it’s (816) 288-3312. We’d love to help anybody out that’s listening whether it’s working through one of our packages or whether it’s just answering a couple of quick questions on the phone. Anything we can do to help the physicians out, we really appreciate it, I mean we really enjoy doing that, so we encourage you to call.

Josh Mettle: I appreciate your time. Thanks again. It was a pleasure, and we look forward to connecting with you again soon. Thank you.

Jon Appino: No problem. Thanks, Josh.