On today’s episode we have Jason DiLorenzo, founder of Doctors Without Quarters, a student loan advisory firm that specializes in working with medical professionals, counseling them on what to do with their consumer and student loan debt. Jason talks about:
- the difference between IBR and Pay As You Earn
- why he advises paying the minimum required when in PAYE
- public loan forgiveness and how to keep that option available to you
- the definition of public service
- when you should consider refinancing your student loans
Josh Mettle: Welcome to the Physician Financial Success Podcast. My name is Josh Mettle, and this is the podcast dedicated to advising physicians how to avoid financial landmines. Today, we’ll be talking with Jason DiLorenzo from Doctors Without Quarters, a student loan advisory firm that specializes in working with medical professionals, counseling them on what to do with their consumer and student loan debt.
Jason, I’m excited for our call today and I love your slogan. I just want to start with this. The slogan is, “We are tireless students of the student loan marketplace…so that you don’t have to be.” I love that. Welcome to the show! How are you doing today?
Jason DiLorenzo: Thanks! I’m doing well, Josh. How are you?
Josh Mettle: I’m doing great. I appreciate you spending some time with us.
Jason DiLorenzo: Yeah.
Josh Mettle: And I know you have a ton of knowledge to drop on young physicians who might be trying to figure out the best strategies for their student loans, so let’s just jump into it. Tell us a bit about your background and history and how you got started with Doctors Without Quarters, and where you are today. Bring us up to speed.
Jason DiLorenzo: Sure, yeah. You know I’ve always publicly been a numbers guy from back in my studying finance days in college. Then I worked for a little while as a financial advisor, then in the financial mines of commercial insurance underwriting. In about 6 years, I became the regional director for student loans specific advisory for graduate professionals and I kind of quickly learned that this is the industry that deserves and needs some dedicated talent because it’s ever evolving and relatively complex. I kind of focused on doctors specifically as I realized that early career physicians are very busy in their careers and don’t have the time to get their arms around a lot of these changing programs, and their repaying strategies in general as they focus on their careers.
About 6 months ago, I launched Doctors Without Quarters as a dedicated advocate to early career graduate health professionals to help them navigate the student loan environment and that’s what got me here today.
Josh Mettle: I love it. I love the background.
Jason DiLorenzo: Yeah.
Josh Mettle: Yeah. You created Doctors Without Quarters as a standalone student loan advisory firm. Can you help us understand exactly what that means and why you think that’s important to the clients you serve?
Jason DiLorenzo: I can. The student loan industry in general, lenders and servicers, a lot of conflicts of interest exist between those organizations and their borrowers. We kind of as Doctors Without Quarters has carved out our niche in advocating borrowers to make the right decisions about their loans, which previously hadn’t existed in my view as a dedicated service or organization. If you think about, there’s several main servicers for federal student loans at this point. They all want to service student loan business because in 2010, the federal student loan industry was nationalized, and all borrowers have to go to accredited schools first-step for their student loans from direct loans programs and then they’re serviced by these different organizations.
Josh Mettle: Got it.
Jason DiLorenzo: Loan servicing organizations, and so very often with your borrower, and you want to get answers about repayment strategies, which doctors certainly need when they go into training, you often find that some of the advice can be conflicted, not in the best interests of the borrower but in the best interests of the lender or the servicer. There wasn’t really an organization out there that aligns specifically with borrowers to help them make these decisions and put some case studies and analytics to it.
That’s what we do. That’s our corner of this sandbox if you will, is to align with the borrower to approach the marketplace and help them understand what their options are and then make the best decisions regarding their loans. I think what’s unique about us is that we take a complete advocacy approach.
Josh Mettle: Well, they certainly need that. The confusion around student loans in my dealings with younger docs is substantial. To have somebody from an advocacy standpoint that doesn’t have a dog in the fight. Whether you go left or go right, they’re just there to advise you is exactly what’s needed, so I applaud you for that.
Jason DiLorenzo: Yeah. It comes up all the time. An early career physician who is still in trainee but maybe 30, 32 years old, he’s been in training for a few years, went to a long residency program, maybe did some fellowship, has a family, wants to buy a home, and has still a significant amount of student loan debt. That’s almost like another mortgage. There are ways to navigate the student loan repayment environment to give yourself the liquidity and room to make an informed and effective home purchase. Those are the kind of things that we help people line up from your perspective.
Josh Mettle: Yeah, that’s perfect. That is a great segue into my next question‑
Jason DiLorenzo: Yeah.
Josh Mettle: Which is let’s talk a little bit about the differences between IBR and Pay As You Earn and also if you could just comment for me if the physician going through, let’s say they’re going through residency or fellowship has the ability to make additional payments, would you recommend that they do so?
Jason DiLorenzo: So, the first part of the question is the difference between IBR and Pay As You Earn?
Josh Mettle: Correct.
Jason DiLorenzo: We’ll start there. They’re both income-driven loan repayment plans that function almost exactly the same. There are two differences. With income-based repayment, it doesn’t matter when you took out your federal student loans. You’re eligible for income-based repayment if you can demonstrate the hardship that qualifies you for that program, and the hardship is simply 15 percent of your discretionary income monthly. This doesn’t sound simple, but it is. Fifteen percent of your discretionary income monthly needs to be less than what you would be required to pay on your loans over a 10-year standard monthly payment term.
If we put the average physician’s economics to that, if on average of $220, 000 of federal student loan debt, over 10 years, that’s going to cost about $2,400 to $2,500 monthly on a 10-year standard monthly repayment plan. If you’re making $50,000 a year, then 15 percent of your discretionary income if you’re single is probably about $350 to $400 per month. That disparity, that’s your hardship. When you demonstrate that, you’re eligible for income-based repayment. It doesn’t matter when you took out your loans.
The Pay As You Earn program has the same exact formula for hardship in terms of how the formula looks, but it’s 10 percent of your discretionary income. That hardship is demonstrated on a $50,000 income at probably the $250 to $275 mark per month for the same level of borrowing. Now with the Pay As You Earn program, you have to be a newer borrower. You can’t have any Federal Student Loans before October 1, 2007. Today, like this year’s medical school graduates, you probably are eligible for the Pay As You Earn program.
Both of these programs also have two loan forgiveness components to them. They both will forgive your loans at the end of 10 years if you’re working in public service. Now 95 percent of residency and fellowship programs in the US are public service qualified and because they are academic teaching hospitals that employ their house staff from their nonprofit organizations. You’re counting down this 10-year clock. Most house staff, residents and fellows are counting down this clock if they use these programs, which they probably need some relief related to their student loans.
Anyway for most of the doctors that I advise, I encourage them to use these programs and in fact, the last part of your question, I encourage them to pay the minimum in both IBR and Pay As You Earn. If you had a $250 payment in Pay As You Earn but you have the liquidity to say afford paying $750 per month, I would tell you save that additional $500 a month during residency. Put that in a non-risk generating interest-bearing sort of money market or savings account, which doesn’t return much these days. But if you’re in line for loan forgiveness, which most residents and fellows are with Public Service Loan Forgiveness available as it is today, you wouldn’t want to compromise that savings opportunity. In addition, the savings that you put aside, you would not subject that to risk.
If you did need to go into repayment on your loans and loan forgiveness, it wasn’t an option at the end of training, you could conceivably pay off your accrued interest or as much of it as possible on your student loans before you went into practice and that interest wouldn’t have capitalized over the course of your training. There’s not really a cost to paying an additional down on your debt. I wouldn’t advise people to do that when they had a loan forgiveness opportunity that would be compromised. That makes sense?
Josh Mettle: It does and I have couple of questions. Man, this is good stuff.
Jason DiLorenzo: Okay.
Josh Mettle: First of all, can you just give me definition of public service? What type of hospitals literally would or would not qualify for the loan forgiveness?
Jason DiLorenzo: Great question because this is tricky. Eighty percent of hospitals ‑ that’s the rough number – 80 percent of hospitals in the country are nonprofit organization hospitals themselves. However, many physicians work for physician practice groups that contract with nonprofit hospitals. It’s very possible. It’s even more probable in some specialties that you are working in the building of a nonprofit hospital but your employer where your paycheck comes from is a for-profit entity.
Now this can vary by specialty and it can vary by state. It’s hard to give a direct answer to that question. In California, where I live, the Kaiser system would be a good example of a non-public service qualified attending role. You do your residency in the Kaiser System, and you’re employed by the foundation as a resident and a fellow. If you stay on as a hospitalist as an attending physician in the Kaiser system after you’re done with the training, in California, the TPMG, The Permanente Medical Group, which is a for-profit physician group, is your employer and you’re no longer eligible for Public Service Loan Forgiveness. That dynamic can vary amongst hospitals.
In different states, the federal law that kind of dictates how hospitals hire people is called Stark Law. This is a federal law that bans the practice of physician self-referral for Medicare and Medicaid patients and some states have very strict interpretations of Stark Law like California, which is why you see the Kaiser dynamic. Other states access some of the loopholes related to Stark Law and they hire their physicians directly in many specialties. If you’re in one of those states or if you’re at one of those hospitals, you want to be at one these hospitals, it might be a higher likelihood that you would be employed directly by the hospital and such. I always advise my clients when they learn where they want to be at the end of training to help make those decisions on their loans based on the potential for loan forgiveness savings depending upon where they land.
Josh Mettle: Yeah, I saw you do and we’ll give your contact information at the end for folks who want to reach out to you. But you did a great analysis and presentation that I saw where you showed the disparity between nonprofit and profit entities’ compensation and the newly attending physician trying to make that decision which way to go.
Jason DiLorenzo: Yeah.
Josh Mettle: And then how those impact the student loans and I was quite shocked at the results that it was better to go the lower-income route and go loan forgiveness in the illustration that you gave, with even a quite a substantial difference in salary between the two entities.
Jason DiLorenzo: Yeah, correct. So what we calculated in that case study that puts some perspective to this is because I don’t understand why the nonprofit hospitals are more on top of using the repayment programs that’re available to their residents at a teaching hospital, why they’re not making certain or doing proactive things like certifying their employment as a public service qualified entity. I don’t really understand why hospitals aren’t more on top of this because in that case study, you had a borrower who had $250,000 of student loan debt, not an uncommon scenario. It goes up to $300,000 by the time they’re done with 4 years of training and they’ve been in Pay As You Earn and paying just a few hundred dollars a month on this debt. They got offered a faculty position at their residency hospital where they trained not just for economic reasons but for personal reasons what they wanted to do in medicine is maybe staying in academic setting, but maybe that salary offer was around $165,000 but then they get offered $240,000 salary. To use the example earlier, a hospitalist at TPMG in the Kaiser system, but there’s no loan forgiveness available there whereas there is in the faculty position.
The overall out-of-pocket student loan payments if you take the nonprofit job, the faculty position, is probably somewhere around $300,000 in reduced out-of-pocket loan payments. What we did was take that number and factored it into what is your pretax salary actually worth? It’s a lot more than $165,000 because on average over the next 6 years, your out-of-pocket savings on your loans is $300,000 less. And so that salary became more close to $250,000 on average for the next 6 years.
Now that’s a 6-year retention tool for that hospital. If they are making certain and being proactive about making sure that their residents are participating in these plans that already make the most financial sense for them, and they don’t make overpayments and all of that that we discussed earlier. I’ve done some education for hospitals as well to help them understand that there is a federal subsidy if your compensation package that exists here if you’re a nonprofit hospital employing your attendings or your faculty from your nonprofit organization.
Josh Mettle: Yeah, that – go ahead. Sorry.
Jason DiLorenzo: No, that’s all right. It hasn’t caught on yet and I’m not sure why.
Josh Mettle: Well, keep fanning the flames, my friend. I think the presentation was important and people got out that info.
Jason DiLorenzo: Yeah. Great.
Josh Mettle: Okay, so let’s move on to my next question here. You say that 95 percent of companies advising student loan refinancing don’t have a program that will fit doctors during residency.
Jason DiLorenzo: Yeah.
Josh Mettle: That seems like a big number. Talk to us about what a doc should know about refinancing and give us some insights on when and why it would make sense to do so.
Jason DiLorenzo: Sure. The refinancing marketplace is crowded and competitive increasingly so I would say, every day. There seems to be a new player that’s getting into – I won’t name companies here, but I have 10 to 15 of them come off the top of my head whereas even 6 to 8 months ago, I feel like there was only a handful. And so this is a big short-term business right now. You might even call somewhat of an arbitrage that exists in the marketplace right now because when you went to grad school, medical school, or any other graduate program from 2006 until today, graduate school interest rates – the loans, the federal loans can be up to 8.5 percent. That’s 2006. The lowest they were was in 2013 when the Stafford Loans were available at 5.4 percent for 1 year. So, the average graduate borrower has an interest rate probably around 6.5 percent to 7 percent.
Now those graduate borrowers who have the opportunity for higher incomes, the private marketplace has realized that these are better risks and that they should offer lower interest rates. A lot of these refinancing companies aren’t even banks, they will package the loans to investors. Now if you’re in residency, there is no return available because more residents again for the dynamics that we talked about earlier can’t afford to go into some repayment plan while they’re still in training and have a $50,000 income and they’re looking at $200,000 to $300,000 of debt. The lowest interest rates in the refinancing marketplace are going to be available when you choose the shortest repayment term, so that even makes the payments required higher. Most of these refinancing companies won’t offer a residency product because they need their borrowers to go into full repayment.
Josh Mettle: Right.
Jason DiLorenzo: Now there are a couple that have figured out how to attract their investors or the bank offer a residency product where you do get deferment for some period of time. The trick is as we were talking about earlier 95 percent of residency and fellowship programs are Public Service Loan Forgiveness qualified and if you ask most doctors in their first year of residency or the second year of residency, they might not know where they’re going to be practicing yet. Academics might at some point speak to them. They might apply for a fellowship and stay in an academic realm. They might not know what state they’re going to go to, to know that their hospitals either going to employ for nonprofit or for-profit. While they’re in training, it doesn’t make sense to go off the path of Public Service Loan Forgiveness. But there are doctors who know that they’re going to work in the for-profit sector. There are doctors that, to use again the Kaiser example, that know that that’s where they want to be, in that case, I might say if there’s a bank out there or a lender that will refinance your loans while you’re in training and rates are low right now and you’re comfortable choosing your repayment terms even though you don’t know what your salary is going to be as an attending yet, than there is an opportunity. But I try and make people understand the federal benefits they’re giving up, even though the interest rates are high, the savings opportunity could be great. It’s tough to choose a repayment term that’s going to get you a lower interest rate when there are still some uncertainty as to how much money you’re going to make when you’re done with training.
I think a lot of the banks have realized, lenders have realized that the resident market is tricky and haven’t come down to early stage residents just yet, but there are a couple of lenders that have. In some cases, I would not say not the majority, it doesn’t make sense for them to refinance their loans. As an example if you’re married to this income-based plans. We’ll have – I don’t know if you’re going to ask me about taxes, but I’m throwing it out there now.
Josh Mettle: Yeah.
Jason DiLorenzo: If you’re married to someone that has a high income and you’re on income-based loan repayment plan, then your household income is going to dictate your payments and if you’re married say to an attending physician, who’s making $250,000 or $300,000 a year, you’re making $50,000, your payments go up significantly if you don’t file your taxes separately. Some people might get priced out of being able to use Public Service Loan Forgiveness even in residency, and in that case, they might be a refinancing candidate. I’m glad to see that the marketplace has at least a couple of players that have a competitive product.
Josh Mettle: Man, there’s a lot of moving pieces and there is such a need for Doctors Without Quarters because I get it now, right?
Jason DiLorenzo: Yeah.
Josh Mettle: Everybody got their perspective that they’re pitching because it behooves them, but with so many moving pieces, if you don’t have somebody in the middle ground‑
Jason DiLorenzo: Right.
Josh Mettle: Acting as an advocate, you just can’t make the right decisions there.
Jason DiLorenzo: That’s why we’re here. I don’t really think there’s anybody else out there that does what we do as a dedicated advisor.
Josh Mettle: Yeah, yeah. So let’s –go ahead. Do you have something to add to that?
Jason DiLorenzo: Yeah, I was going to say yeah I just realized as I’m talking through these scenarios it does get deep and complex and that’s wh I’m doing all the talking here, I’m not giving you a chance to say – does it make sense or?
Josh Mettle: No, you’re good.
Jason DiLorenzo: Yeah. It’s complicated stuff.
Josh Mettle: One thing you said that I just took a little note on, you mentioned about debt capitalizing or interest capitalizing while in the Pay As You Earn program. Can you just comment on that if I’m going through residency or fellowship, still in training and I’ve decided to go with the lowest payments on Pay As You Earn, is that interest capitalizing while I’m training?
Jason DiLorenzo: It is not capitalizing. It’s accruing. It’s very similar to how loans work when you’re in school deferment, so when you’re in medical school. Your interest accrues at whatever your average interest rate, you will receive 6.5 percent to 7 percent, you know that number adds up, but it doesn’t capitalize. It doesn’t get added to principal. If you enter Pay As You Earn in your intern year and a lot of interns are in the zero payment in Pay As You Earn because your payments are based on your previous year’s tax returns. So fourth-year medical students, when they graduate they file a tax return for the prior year. That tax return can be used as income documentation. Actually as a zero payment, which almost functions as an extension of your grace period except that it also counts down the loan forgiveness clocks that are ticking there.
Josh Mettle: Sure.
Jason DiLorenzo: If you’re in a nonprofit residency. But with respect to Pay As You Earn, I went on that tangent and I lost sight of the answer to your question. What was the question?
Josh Mettle: Yeah, yeah. no problem. Where we were going with that was the difference between interest accruing or capitalizing, so I think‑
Jason DiLorenzo: Capitalizing.
Josh Mettle: Yeah.
Jason DiLorenzo: Got it. While you have the hardship that qualifies you for these programs and as we talked about the disparity between 10 percent of your discretionary income and how much you would normally be required to pay on your loan is significant for a resident.
Josh Mettle: Yeah.
Jason DiLorenzo: While you have that hardship, the interest only accrues, it doesn’t compound or capitalize. That’s kind of an inherent benefit that people don’t always take inventory with, but understand that that’s a benefit. If you use forbearance, and a lot of doctors from previous years – today’s doctor’s predecessors – they didn’t pay anything on the student loan starting training. They also had variable interest rates that came down to the subprime mortgage crisis that came down from 7 percent to 2 percent. As a financial advisor, you would say don’t ever take that down. That’s practically an asset.
Josh Mettle: Yeah.
Jason DiLorenzo: A 2 percent student loan debt. Today’s borrowers have fixed interest rates on average between 6.5 percent and 7 percent and capitalization is expensive. If you’re using forbearance, your servicer can capitalize the interest every year. What starts out as a $2,500 monthly payment on a 10-year payment term after paying nothing for 4 years of training, and all that interest capitalizes along the way, your payments are like $3,300 per month when you graduate from residency. So IBR and Pay As You Earn dropped somewhere in the middle of there in terms of accruing interest. It’s not as expensive as forbearance.
Josh Mettle: Wow, that is powerful and I never understood it and I have conversations with young medical professionals all the time about student loan debt because the fact is that they’re mortgage qualifying. I just want to really park there for a second.
Jason DiLorenzo: Yeah.
Josh Mettle: What I’m hearing you say is if I’m done with my training and I’m making my decision after my grace period, should I go down the path of forbearance for an additional year or should I go Pay As You Earn? If I go down the path of forbearance and I have $200,000 in student loans at 6.8 percent, then roughly at the end of that year, I’m going to have a balance of $214,000. Then on the next year, I’m paying interest on $214,000 not on $200,000 and then the year after that, I’m paying interest on $230,000. The year after that, I’m paying interest on $265,000.
Jason DiLorenzo: Yeah.
Josh Mettle: So we’re compounding interest if you go the route of forbearance. If you go Pay As You Earn, we’re making these small payments but I’m only accruing interest on $200,000 the principal rather than the compounded.
Jason DiLorenzo: The whole time, yeah the whole time. Yeah, that’s correct. That’s exactly right. Those are very accurate numbers that you’re spelling out there.
Josh Mettle: But nobody understands this stuff, I’m telling you. That is so important to know.
Jason DiLorenzo: Yeah, I think it makes having a little skin in the game in paying a few hundred dollars a month, I think it makes it economically mandatory.
Josh Mettle: Yeah, agreed. Agreed that’s powerful. Thank you. I’m going to pass that on to the clients I serve now going forward, so I appreciate that.
Jason DiLorenzo: That’s what I’m here for.
Josh Mettle: Yeah, killer stuff. Okay last question.
Jason DiLorenzo: Yes.
Josh Mettle: We’re a young physician. We’re at the end of our residency or fellowship and now we’re at the place where we’re going to actually start making some money. Now we have to really shift our repayment strategy. Let’s say as we went through training we just said, “Hey, this Pay As You Earn really seems to make sense. It’s only 10 percent of my discretionary income.”
Jason DiLorenzo: Yeah.
Josh Mettle: “I’m not capitalizing or compounding the interest. This seems to be the way to go and I may go to work for a nonprofit entity and have forgiveness.”
Jason DiLorenzo: Yeah.
Josh Mettle: Now we get to the end of this thing, and now we’re at the point of choosing going left or going right in terms of where I’m going to work, now what should my decisions be hinging on? What should I be taking into consideration at this point?
Jason DiLorenzo: Yeah, so the case studies that we talked about earlier where your salary was worth instead of $165,000, maybe it was worth $240,000 as in salary equivalent because of the loan savings that you got. If you’re truly looking at two job opportunities in a nonprofit or for-profit environment, then you’re going to want to do that case study analysis, the one that I walked through earlier to determine how much less are your loans going to cost if you’re going to take the nonprofit job and put some numbers to them, in terms of what’s that salary actually worth for the next 10 minus X number of years that you did in training, to get Public Service Loan Forgiveness. If you do take the nonprofit job, I’m going to be as your advisor, discuss with you how to keep payments as low as possible for that next 6 years or whatever it is to total 10 years so that you get the maximum amount of loan forgiveness.
Now that becomes tricky when Obama’s budget proposal for 2015 wanted to – propose to cap Public Service Loan Forgiveness, not allow borrowers to file their taxes married and separately to get reduced payments if they have a higher household income. So there’s some legislation that can potentially limit some of the savings that people need to know about. Residents and fellows are busy, so they’re not following all these legislative changes but the past two budget proposals have targeted the expense of these programs in terms of loan forgiveness. But they’ve also – some of the budget proposal items are a little more friendly to borrowers who have hardships. For example, we mentioned earlier the difference between IBR and Pay As You Earn, being when you took out your loans, there’s also a proposal to eliminate the loan borrowing requirement and have everybody eligible for the Pay As You Earn program. We didn’t talk about this, but Pay As You Earn has a 20-year loan forgiveness component on any balance left outstanding regardless of what sector you worked in.
The government is essentially saying if you’re in loan repayments for 20 years, we’re not going to saddle you with student loan debt beyond 20 years. Right now, that loan forgiveness is a taxable event. If you came out of medical school ‑ and this is not an uncommon scenario ‑ I’ve counseled a lot of doctors in this scenario. They have $350,000 or $400,000 in federal student loan debt. They’re in – I don’t want to target any particular specialty – but they’re in a lower paying specialty, let’s take for example pediatrics. They’re expecting maybe $140,000 to $150,000 starting salary after 3 years or sometimes it’s even 6 years of training – 3 years of fellowship. There’s 14 years left until they have potentially taxable loan forgiveness available to them.
In that case, we run the analytics for people to say that’s actually the cheapest route out of this debt over 20 years based on that income, your total amount of payments won’t even equal what you borrowed. So I’m going to tell that borrower to stay in Pay As You Earn for the whole 20 years even if they’re working in a for-profit environment and their refinancing profile probably wouldn’t be as attractive due to their debt-income ratio to where the refinancing marketplace would even offer a solution for them. But there is a federal back stop of relief. Then the budget proposal item on Obama’s 2016 budget proposal proposes to eliminate that tax liability which will change the game for a lot of high-dollar student loan borrowers who are in maybe lower- paying specialties. Did I make this sound even more complex?
Josh Mettle: No, I mean my conclusion on the other end here is you really widened the prism and the perspective that I have, so I appreciate that immensely and I know our listeners do, too, but‑
Jason DiLorenzo: Yeah.
Josh Mettle: But I recognize that the medical profession isn’t all about money. It’s about where you think you can serve and practice medicine the best and where you feel fulfilled. But this is so valuable and this analysis is so important.
Jason DiLorenzo: Yeah.
Josh Mettle: I want to end on this because I think almost anybody, everybody should at the end of this if you have student loans and you are making this decision, you’ve got to have this kind of an analysis done so you can think through the long-term net, net, net application.
Jason DiLorenzo: Yeah.
Josh Mettle: What I mean by that is net of student loan forgiveness, net of taxes, net of salary, what does it pencil in the long term and this analysis is vital. How do our listeners find you and how do they get connected with you to help work on this type of an analysis for them?
Jason DiLorenzo: Yeah, we – I myself and we have a small team of sort of regional educational directors ‑ we work with a lot of schools and hospitals to do presentations and lectures and resident retreats or resident orientation. We have some institutional relationships where we’ll come to schools and hospitals and talk to graduating students or those hospital house staff. We may be coming to your neighborhood at some point, and we’re available to do that for those who are interested in having this dedicated talk at their program.
They can visit our website. I write a blog on some of this stuff and legislative changes. We are available for consultations, presentations, suitability analysis for the refinancing marketplace as we were talking about. You can get all of that information on our website. It’s www dot D-W-O-Q dot com, www.dwoq.com, Doctors Without Quarters, www.dwoq.com. You can start there to get more information about us and where we’re going to be. We have webinars that we host at different intervals so you can sign up for a free webinar, which will cover a lot of the content that we talked about here today and that’s our website.
Josh Mettle: Thanks, Jason. I really appreciate the information and your willingness to share so openly with our listeners and I look forward to connecting with you soon. I just really want to thank you for the time today.
Jason DiLorenzo: Hey, thanks for the audience as well. This stuff is important. As you said, the economics of practicing medicine are challenging sometimes, and so to do what you want to do and to serve as you want to serve. We help everyone figure out how to economically make what they want to do viable, and I appreciate this opportunity, this venue.
Josh Mettle: My pleasure, buddy. I look forward to connecting with you again real soon.
Jason DiLorenzo: Yeah, thanks, Josh.